tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310260988648290554.post6477876714373261258..comments2023-06-13T06:23:25.275-07:00Comments on Fear and Loathing in West Bend: Here we go again...Miss West Bendhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16163355431147483269noreply@blogger.comBlogger87125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310260988648290554.post-45809672454806938972010-08-26T18:42:22.792-07:002010-08-26T18:42:22.792-07:00If only we had $180 more... if only Dan had been a...If only we had $180 more... if only Dan had been able to talk to the library board... if only, if only.....<br /><br />Fly yourself out to West Bend Dan.Miss West Bendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16163355431147483269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310260988648290554.post-65565991026800755862010-08-26T18:36:56.054-07:002010-08-26T18:36:56.054-07:00The point is not how much Ginny got to talk or who...The point is not how much Ginny got to talk or who she invited to what. The point is a direct challenge to the ALA when it again appears in our community. Ginny versus the ALA would not be fair. Indeed the ALA often wins in local communities by picking off inexperienced prey. <br /><br />You all got 2 minutes, but the ALA got much more and made materially false statements that went unchallenged. Your community deserves healthy debate, not unchallenged misinformation. <br /><br />When the ALA shows up again and makes another speech, I suggest I get equal time to respond and to provide accurate information. It would be best if the ALA and I debated directly. If it chooses not to speak for fear of being effectively challenged in public, like when it cancelled a national TV broadcast interview on Banned Books Week when it learned I was invited for balance, I could still provide useful accurate information in the amount of time the ALA already had. Doing this in person will be far more effective than in writing. And the ALA extending me a grant for travel expenses would be classy.SafeLibraries®https://www.blogger.com/profile/06756725065032196698noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310260988648290554.post-58160958208773877482010-08-26T17:24:30.928-07:002010-08-26T17:24:30.928-07:00You make it sound as if there was no opportunity f...You make it sound as if there was no opportunity for Ginny to express her views. Was her blog, various radio, TV and newspaper interviews, the print ads, and the radio ads not enough?<br /><br />Did Ginny specifically invite me to speak at her public meeting in late March to represent an opposing view to her position? Of course not. At the June 2nd board meeting, the members of the public that wanted to speak all got the same amount of time. Ginny got 2 minutes, I got two minutes, each speaker got two minutes. The speakers were pretty evenly divided between the two "sides," so there was not overwhelming majority and no favoritism.<br /><br />If you object to the library board including an ALA speaker as part of the June meeting, that's your prerogative. But they are well within their rights to invite whomever they choose, as was Jake Jurss for his Read In event, as was Ginny for her meeting.<br /><br />Were you able to get my Guestview response to Ginny's from last week? If not, I can send it to you.Maria Hanrahanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16326682270775760864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310260988648290554.post-21847931077056131992010-08-26T16:23:42.717-07:002010-08-26T16:23:42.717-07:00Sorry, it was quippy. Forgive me, I'm only je...Sorry, it was quippy. Forgive me, I'm only jealous no one is funding me. <br /><br />Anyway, it appears you and I have stated differing views and agree to differ. That is the basis of the debate that West Bend should have in he future when Ginny brings it up again, and I'm certain she will. People should discuss these very important issues without attacking each other. This conversation of ours has been the most civil ever. You are viewed as a leader in that community. Perhaps you can surprise everyone with restraint and generosity and lead the way for them to do the same.<br /><br />And when the ALA shows up in your community again, perhaps I can be invited up as well for a public debate with the ALA, and not just a 3 minute speech before a board. Perhaps the FTRF can grant me the travel expenses, or you can allot me a portion of the remainder of yours. It is not fair for the ALA to show up and there is no one to speak otherwise. The ALA has years of effort by Judith Krug to promote its ideas behind it, while I have the US Supreme Court and common sense, perhaps even local law, behind me. Let the people decide for themselves what's what after listening to such a debate.SafeLibraries®https://www.blogger.com/profile/06756725065032196698noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310260988648290554.post-34067041225994591512010-08-26T14:33:48.971-07:002010-08-26T14:33:48.971-07:00You don't give parents enough credit. I reali...You don't give parents enough credit. I realize some parents are not interested in doing this, but how difficult is it to research a book, movie, CD, video game, etc. to try to find out if it's appropriate for your child. If I was looking for info about a book, I wouldn't go the ALA website to find out more about it, nor would I think a book was right for my child simply because it was on an ALA award list. I would look for reviews on the book both from resources like School Library Journal and Publishers Weekly, as well as from consumers. Maybe I would ask a librarian about it, or parents of other children that may have read it. If I still had doubts about a book and whether or not it was appropriate for my kids, I'd read it first myself. I would do the same for music, movies, etc.<br /><br />I don't expect a library, a movie theater, a video game or music store, etc. to parent my child for me. I also don't expect the ALA to parent my child or know what's best for him.<br /><br />And you really need to drop the "Maria funded by the ALA" quips. It's getting old, and do you really believe that the Freedom to Read Foundation, a separate corporation from the ALA, designating my group as the recipient of a grant which one member (not even me, mind you) was reimbursed $180 qualifies as "Maria funded by the ALA"?!Maria Hanrahanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16326682270775760864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310260988648290554.post-53262308632853968572010-08-26T13:38:18.162-07:002010-08-26T13:38:18.162-07:00As to the MPAA, you just made the exact same argum...As to the MPAA, you just made the exact same argument the ALA makes. The ALA tells libraries not to follow the MPAA but they are supposed to follow the ALA. It's a double standard to me.<br /><br />Be that as it may, no, the MPAA is not law, but it is a representation of common sense and in the people's interest in adherence with common sense.<br /><br />You still have not explained why so many decisions rest on people making decisions at the same time you and the ALA argue only the parents can make those decisions.<br /><br />Further, the ALA provides guidance to parents about reading materials. So parents do get involved as the ALA says as the only means to ensure children are getting the proper material, but the ALA has seen to it that it makes no difference. You see, the ALA almost never reveals the information a parent needs to make an informed decision. <br /><br />The ALA says only parents can make the decisions, then the very same ALA misleads parents as to the contents of various materials. This is fundamentally unfair. A book with oral sex in it has been given the ALA's top award for books for kids 12 and up. I personally got the author of that book to admit he would not even give it to his own 12 year old. The ALA did not advise parents of the oral sex or something like that. Yet it gave the book its top award. There is nothing fair about that at all. Either way, the parents lose. West Bend needs to trust West Bend, not the ALA or Maria funded by the ALA.SafeLibraries®https://www.blogger.com/profile/06756725065032196698noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310260988648290554.post-86545779823953463542010-08-26T13:24:58.490-07:002010-08-26T13:24:58.490-07:00Yes, I do, but if you don't fall in line, you ...Yes, I do, but if you don't fall in line, you suffer consequences. The remainder is quoted from "<a href="http://www.fflibraries.org/The_Internet_And_the_Seduction_of_the_American_Public_Library.html" rel="nofollow">THE INTERNET AND THE SEDUCTION OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC LIBRARY</a>":<br /><br />Article 5 of the Library Bill of Rights does not actually mention in loco parentis, but the Intellectual Freedom Manual lays down the new rules.30 Many libraries, used to a tradition of local control, continued separate card files for children and continued to act as authority figures responsible to the community. In response, the Office of Intellectual Freedom drafted an "Interpretation of Free Access to Minors" and sent it to librarians all across the country. (It was this statement that cut off the partnership between parents and librarians and caused what parents see as a betrayal of their trust.)<br /><br />The Statement labels as "unprofessional," any librarians who continue to notify or act for the parents. Librarians who do not follow the ALA line are accused of being "in violation of Article 5 of the Library Bill of Rights."31 I asked Ms. Krug if librarians were legally bound to follow the Statement of Interpretation. "no," she said. "It's a philosophical statement. But 55,000 librarians adhere to it."32SafeLibraries®https://www.blogger.com/profile/06756725065032196698noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310260988648290554.post-18893652958807045762010-08-26T09:40:21.691-07:002010-08-26T09:40:21.691-07:00The problem with much of your argument is that the...The problem with much of your argument is that these practices (rating movies, etc.) are not LAW. For example, the MPAA is a self-regulating entity, with motion picture studios submitting films to be rated. Over the years, the way films were rated has changed, and the MPAA is an independent body comprised of parents, who provide the ratings to give cautionary warning to the viewing public, so parents can decide what films their children can see. The MPAA works to the industry's advantage, because it helps the audience make informed decisions about how they spend their movie going dollars. But it's not law.<br /><br />I think it's unfair to lump public libraries in with school libraries in this discussion. Schools and their libraries may have parameters set by the school district that public libraries don't have. And if you remove something from a library under the auspices that you are protecting minors from it, but the material has not been ruled to be obscene or unlawful for minors, it is a violation of the First Amendment.<br /><br />It's not fair to say that librarians "no longer keep inappropriate material from childen" because of supposed ALA mandate, as if they are merely tools of the ALA. Don't you imagine that librarians have an inherent belief in the people's free access to materials?Maria Hanrahanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16326682270775760864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310260988648290554.post-18658315743770749802010-08-26T08:29:46.930-07:002010-08-26T08:29:46.930-07:00Got a good laugh outta that song.
Listen, setting...Got a good laugh outta that song.<br /><br />Listen, setting aside my point is to leave the decision up to the local community, your argument essentially is that no one is even in a position to make a judgment, it must be left to the individual, else it violates the First Amendment.<br /><br />That is false. It is the ALA's view, the ACLU's view, the NCAC's view and your view, but it is false.<br /><br />Think about it. If no one is ever in a position to make a decision, then movies would not be rated, cigar stores would not need to put covers on the girlie mags and put them on the high racks, public schools would have to have any material whatsoever.<br /><br />It all sounds nice. Really, it sounds nice to say no one is in a position to make a decision. Then how do you explain Board of Education v. Pico that allowed the removal of pervasively vulgar material having no educational value from schools? How can you do that if no one is in a postion to judge the contents of the book?<br /><br />Indeed, why do libraries have selection policies in the first place if every decision must be left to the individual?<br /><br />In US v. ALA, a case the ALA lost big, by the way, the US Supreme Court said, "The interest in protecting young library users from material inappropriate for minors is legitimate, and even compelling, as all Members of the Court appear to agree." And the Court went on to find Internet filters in public libraries were constitutional. How is that possible if such decisions must be left to the individual?<br /><br />And do you know who started the trend that librarians would no longer keep inappropriate material from children? Was it a national outcry? Protest? Law? No. It was done silently. It was the ALA. It was Judith Krug herself, about 40 years ago. The same person who lost on similar issues in US v. ALA. It's a losing position.SafeLibraries®https://www.blogger.com/profile/06756725065032196698noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310260988648290554.post-24091222917136888252010-08-26T08:12:48.227-07:002010-08-26T08:12:48.227-07:00Dan, do you like pina coladas? Getting caught in ...Dan, do you like pina coladas? Getting caught in the rain...?<br /><br />Seriously, I don't think we have all that much in common. You still are a propponent of librarians keeping children from "inappropriate" material. Inappropriate according to whom? You? The librarian? Everyone has different views about what is appropriate, and that's why parents should decide. Children and teens still have the Freedom to Read. When someone like Ginny comes along and tries to keep brilliant literature away from young adults, that is not a question of whether or not it is legal to keep certain material from children. That's an outright defiance of the First Amendment.Maria Hanrahanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16326682270775760864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310260988648290554.post-44968402615533322092010-08-25T21:51:56.695-07:002010-08-25T21:51:56.695-07:00Well, well, well. After all this time, it appears...Well, well, well. After all this time, it appears Maria and I have more in common than anyone thought. <br /><br />I don't tell anyone what they can and cannot read. I just advise communities that the ALA's anything-goes view goes against legal principles and common sense.<br /><br />As to Chris Crutcher, he has commented on my blog and he links to me and I to him. He does not write pornography. Authors can write what they like. What authors write is not the issue. I support all authors, including those who write challenged material.<br /><br />The issue is whether it is legal to keep certain material from children and whether the ALA is misleading people by the actions it takes in local communities and by the standards it promotes such as it being age discrimination for a librarian to keep children from inappropriate material. That's the problem. The ALA has a materially false message. I try to add balance so that people can make informed decisions, not misinformed decisions.<br /><br />For example, the ALA says Internet filters block breast cancer. That was true years ago, but currently that is false. When the ALA misleads communities by saying filters block breast cancer, I am perfectly free to point out the ALA is wrong, then link material to prove it.<br /><br />Maria, I am willing to work with you to get Ginny to address only legitimate issues. At the same time you also have to be open minded enough to realize the ALA may be intentionally misleading people. I sense you have made a good start with your latest comment.SafeLibraries®https://www.blogger.com/profile/06756725065032196698noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310260988648290554.post-55922601762075919302010-08-25T21:13:59.581-07:002010-08-25T21:13:59.581-07:00Dan, I do agree with you that there are things (bo...Dan, I do agree with you that there are things (books, video games, movies, etc.) that are inappropriate for children. Ginny would have people believe that I am someone that says absolutely everything is OK for everyone, yet I have not said that and never will, nor do I believe it. I just don't understand how a free thinking person can think that it is ok to say, "I think this book is inappropriate for children, therefore it is inappropriate for ALL children, and it must be kept from them."<br /><br />So while I have my opinions about what I think is appropriate for minors at their various ages, I know I don't have the right to impose my view on others. Why does she, or why do you, think that you know what is appropriate reading material for my kids, or anyone else's? In West Bend, she likened extremely well-written, moving literature such as Whale Talk by Chris Crutcher (I will never forget that book, it moved me so) to "pornography." Talk about inappropriate!Maria Hanrahanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16326682270775760864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310260988648290554.post-30648564433346946262010-08-25T20:43:46.664-07:002010-08-25T20:43:46.664-07:00And, of course, he's now going to weep like a ...And, of course, he's now going to weep like a baby about these mean personal attacks.<br /><br />Dan: this is the blogosphere. If you can't take the heat....Marshwoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09966791524173150350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310260988648290554.post-6175256826532144222010-08-25T20:43:08.287-07:002010-08-25T20:43:08.287-07:00I have a new name for Kleinman: Propaganda DanI have a new name for Kleinman: Propaganda DanMarshwoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09966791524173150350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310260988648290554.post-80569837635876982202010-08-25T20:18:45.795-07:002010-08-25T20:18:45.795-07:00Maria,
I do not oppose And Tango Makes Three and ...Maria,<br /><br />I do not oppose And Tango Makes Three and I said so to a reporter along with other things. This is how it came out:<br /><br />"<a href="http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iMj2Fmuq6lqm4kdFfy5Vhp8-suQg" rel="nofollow">US Libraries Hit Back Over Challenges to Kids Books</a>," by <b>Sara Hussein</b>, <i>Agence France-Presse</i> [AFP], 6 September 2009: <br /><br /> ....<br /><br /> Dan Kleinman, who runs the website safelibraries.org, says his concerns are with the sort of sexual content found in "Gossip Girls."<br /><br /> "It is wrong to say that children should not have books because the Earth is not older than 6000 years. It is wrong to say children should not have books because there's witchcraft in them. This is silly," he told AFP, referring to some of the arguments put forward by religious fundamentalists.<br /><br /> But, he says, "some books have explicit, very detailed sexual conduct that is not of a teaching nature... it's just inappropriate for children."<br /><br /> Kleinman, whose website is a clearing house for information about challenging books, insists that he does not want to see books banned, but says there is a legitimate legal basis for restricting children's access to sexually explicit material in libraries.<br /><br /> "All I'm seeking is application of existing law," he said, drawing a parallel between explicit websites or films and literature.<br /><br /> Kleinman accuses the ALA of hyperbole in celebrating Banned Books Week. "The whole purpose of Banned Books Week is to provide this kind of misinformation," he said. "The ALA misleads people into thinking that if you keep an inappropriate book from a child that is considered censorship. It is not."<br /><br /> ....SafeLibraries®https://www.blogger.com/profile/06756725065032196698noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310260988648290554.post-61752742353518944552010-08-25T11:44:12.595-07:002010-08-25T11:44:12.595-07:00I agree, Marshwood, but she/they also should have ...I agree, Marshwood, but she/they also should have had the sense to change/update the list of books. As far as I know, all of the books on the hit list had some aspect of homosexuality in them. Ginny didn't object to books like Forever...by Judy Blume. I remember my friends and I secretly reading that book about 25 years ago. I don't know how explicit the book would be considered now, but back then it was very scandalous! Books like that with sexual experimentation among heterosexual teens seemed to escape Ginny's attention.<br /><br />I'm sure that was just an oversight.Maria Hanrahanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16326682270775760864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310260988648290554.post-38943400994520902322010-08-25T11:12:47.361-07:002010-08-25T11:12:47.361-07:00@Maria - the way that Ginny's original complai...@Maria - the way that Ginny's original complaint about the pro-gay books/links in the young adult area/website <b>so quickly</b> changed into general concern about access to "sexually explicit", with very legally-worded complaints reveals, to me, that there was some kind of intervention by a force much smarter than she. I suspect that was Dan.<br /><br />Dan, care to confirm/deny?Marshwoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09966791524173150350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310260988648290554.post-43309055864414010172010-08-25T09:24:12.777-07:002010-08-25T09:24:12.777-07:00I wouldn't accuse Ginny of being clever. If I...I wouldn't accuse Ginny of being clever. If I had to place a wager, I'd guess that the editor of the paper made her add the "in my opinion" part. <br /><br />I will say, as I've said before, that I have no doubt that sadly, Ginny and Dan really do view these as personal attacks. When someone's entire identity is wrapped up in a belief, to question the belief <b>is</b> to insult them personally. Where I like to take an idea, hold it up to the light, stretch it out, see what it's made of and hold it at a distance, they are one with their ideas.Miss West Bendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16163355431147483269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310260988648290554.post-77620734040299436392010-08-25T07:43:05.123-07:002010-08-25T07:43:05.123-07:00Marshwood, Ginny was clever enough to say somethin...Marshwood, Ginny was clever enough to say something along the lines of "what, <i>in my opinion,</i> appears to be a bribe." She's learned enough to make insinuations and accusations but phrase them in such a way that she's not stating them as fact so it won't qualify as defamation/libel.<br /><br />I have a question for Dan K. You have always seemed very interested in "protecting children from inappropriate material" by way of internet filtering in public libraries, but that has virtually no relation to Ginny's complaint with the library and seemed to have been added as an after thought. The bulk of her challenge was about books, some of which have won national acclaim and are considered to be profound literature. They most certainly do not meet the criteria of obscenity. One of the books that may have been on her list was "And Tango Makes Three," a picture book based on a true story in which two adult male penguins at the Central Park Zoo hatched and egg and raised a young female penguin. Where is the explicit sexuality and inappropriateness in that? Or in "Heather Has Two Mommies," which was certainly on her list. If you examine the list of books she objected to, you'll realize why anyone linked to her (and much as you may object, you are linked) is perceived as a homophobe.Maria Hanrahanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16326682270775760864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310260988648290554.post-52346342430718960332010-08-25T06:51:44.473-07:002010-08-25T06:51:44.473-07:00Dan, have you publicly denounced Ginny for stating...Dan, have you publicly denounced Ginny for stating Maria took a bribe?Marshwoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09966791524173150350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310260988648290554.post-47384567620407992392010-08-25T06:12:43.791-07:002010-08-25T06:12:43.791-07:00By the way, Dan, which Bar Association do you belo...By the way, Dan, which Bar Association do you belong to. Are your dues up to date? And your CLE credits?Marshwoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09966791524173150350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310260988648290554.post-7815342159272792452010-08-25T06:12:15.988-07:002010-08-25T06:12:15.988-07:00Of course, what Dan means by a "personal atta...Of course, what Dan means by a "personal attack" is anyone who questions his logic or motivations.<br /><br />This very comment, for example, will be viewed as a personal attack by Dan.Marshwoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09966791524173150350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310260988648290554.post-59072084132981047902010-08-25T05:45:29.217-07:002010-08-25T05:45:29.217-07:00What I have learned is that this blog is a neveren...What I have learned is that this blog is a neverending series of personal attack after personal attack. I thought I was going to engage in real conversation, instead I'm just engaging in engaging. Not very engaging. I'm not likely to write here further, except if more personal attack needs to be addressed.SafeLibraries®https://www.blogger.com/profile/06756725065032196698noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310260988648290554.post-26284755532065770072010-08-25T05:41:17.534-07:002010-08-25T05:41:17.534-07:00Thanks for confirming the email from you is real.
...Thanks for confirming the email from you is real.<br /><br />Sorry Dan, but a sticker that says "Ginny Maziarka doesn't speak for me" is hardly harassment.<br /><br />Accusing someone of taking a bribe in the local newspaper tho...<br /><br />Did you not learn anything from the email CafePress sent in response?Miss West Bendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16163355431147483269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310260988648290554.post-75531283912807439622010-08-25T05:34:16.516-07:002010-08-25T05:34:16.516-07:00I am, but I have not practiced in years. The emai...I am, but I have not practiced in years. The email was an attempt to end serious harassment of Ginny. Are you arguing no one should help Ginny, or are you arguing ineffective assistance of counsel? Either way, you evidence yet again the continued emphasis on destroying or enjoying the destruction of the reputation of people, all as part of an effort to support your point of view that children should have access to anything no matter how inappropriate. The politics of personal destruction.SafeLibraries®https://www.blogger.com/profile/06756725065032196698noreply@blogger.com